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Thread: The Joe Jackson appreciation thread!

  1. #1
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    The Joe Jackson appreciation thread!

    When he wasn't standing in the corner with an electrical cord in his hand ready to whup ass and screaming "SING MOTHA****A!" at young MJ or taking the pick of his other sons groupies what he actually achieved was nothing short of miraculous.

    When you look at how much the odds were stacked against the J5 actually making it and how Joe steered them so deftly in the early days you've got to admit the man did alright. Granted his parenting style was a tad unorthodox but as the great man himself said "In this world there are winners and losers and none of my boys will be losers" and look where it got MJ.

    Sure he might have erased his whole face in order not to see the man in the mirror reflecting back the genetic traits of an out and out psychopath but that drive for perfection, the incessant rehearsals, the desire to reach further than he could grasp and a whole host of other characteristics that made MJ MJ were all Joe, as was the bell pepper on his face. Love him or hate him Joe literally made a dollar out of 15 cents with pure will, hustle and generous portion of psychological scarring and everyone just focuses on the bad whilst not seeing the good he imparted as well.

    So lets take a moment and give it up for ol Joe, Geocities style:


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    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    When he wasn't standing in the corner with an electrical cord in his hand ready to whup ass and screaming "SING MOTHA****A!" at young MJ or taking the pick of his other sons groupies what he actually achieved was nothing short of miraculous.

    When you look at how much the odds were stacked against the J5 actually making it and how Joe steered them so deftly in the early days you've got to admit the man did alright.
    I don't agree with you. Joe didn't do his best. He should have forced little Michael to learn to play multiple instruments.

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    An additional motive for Joe Jackson (for wanting to make his boys winners) was also because of his own unsuccessful efforts to become a renowned musician in his early days.

    In other words, Joe wanted to fulfill his own unfulfilled dream through his boys (especially, through MJ).

    I am of the opinion that without the vital contribution of his father Joe, MJ would have never become such a huge star.

    Even MJ himself emphasized several times publicly the crucial role of his father Joe in his becoming an accomplished & very successful artist in general (both as a J5 lead singer but also as a solo artist later).

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    Quote Originally Posted by POF View Post
    I don't agree with you. Joe didn't do his best. He should have forced little Michael to learn to play multiple instruments.
    As well as playing basketball too! If moonwalking didn't work at least MJ could've been out there shooting 3 pointers!

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    An additional motive for Joe Jackson (for wanting to make his boys winners) was also because of his own unsuccessful efforts to become a renowned musician in his early days.

    In other words, Joe wanted to fulfill his own unfulfilled dream through his boys (especially, through MJ).

    I am of the opinion that without the vital contribution of his father Joe, MJ would have never become such a huge star.

    Even MJ himself emphasized several times publicly the crucial role of his father Joe in his becoming an accomplished & very successful artist in general (both as a J5 lead singer but also as a solo artist later).
    The motive is irrelevant really as it was what he achieved that counts.

    Realistically had it not been for him pulling the boys away from Motown they too would've gone down the "used to be" route and MJ would've been 50 years old singing I Want You Back at some cabaret somewhere because after all those flops the J5 were seen as done in the industry and Joe fought their corner yet again to get them to Epic which in turn lead to MICHAEL JACKSON (in big bright lights) as we know and thats not even counting all of the grunt work and effort he put in on the Chitlin Circuit way back when. Observing Joe closely shows you exactly how much work goes into becoming an "overnight success" because the man swam with sharks and got his family through relatively unscathed (apart from the scars he placed on their psyche himself) and I've come to realize that all the hate he gets obscures a lot of the good he did.

    I'd like to see those MJ comments on his father if you have links please.

    Also does anyone have any insight into Joes life? I'd be willing to bet that his father was even worse a parent than he was.

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    A couple of quick thoughts.

    Michael Jackson didn't have repeated surgery because of any kind of memory of Joseph. Rather, the repeated surgeries was due to a bit of a complicated situation involving his discoid lupus. This is independently verified, by the way.

    And Joseph was important in getting the J5 from Gary, Indiana to Hitsville, Detroit and, therefore, Motown. Once at Motown, Berry Gordy took over and Joseph was essentially relegated to being a backseat passenger.

    Without Gordy, the J5 would never have entered the history books.

    Joseph was a man of limited means who came to believe in his sons enough to buy expensive music instruments the Jacksons really couldn't afford. This did cause a number of arguments between Joseph and Katherine.

    The early days are of critical importance to establishing any new group and Joseph knew it. But he also knew Motown could take his boys where he could not. Then, Epic later on with the help of then 16 year old Michael Jackson in the meeting with Ron Alexenburg of Epic.

    To the next level. Yet he really did not handle his own relegation well and never really recovered from it. As a result, he made a poor manager nobody really wanted to deal with from then on.

    His lasting influence on the J5 and Michael Jackson was the constant rehearsals. He never really praised the boys for a show much which fired up Michael's desire to do even better in order to earn his father's love and/or respect.

    Michael did credit Joseph unreservedly with one thing - he didn't steal their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    As well as playing basketball too! If moonwalking didn't work at least MJ could've been out there shooting 3 pointers!



    The motive is irrelevant really as it was what he achieved that counts.

    Realistically had it not been for him pulling the boys away from Motown they too would've gone down the "used to be" route and MJ would've been 50 years old singing I Want You Back at some cabaret somewhere because after all those flops the J5 were seen as done in the industry and Joe fought their corner yet again to get them to Epic which in turn lead to MICHAEL JACKSON (in big bright lights) as we know and thats not even counting all of the grunt work and effort he put in on the Chitlin Circuit way back when. Observing Joe closely shows you exactly how much work goes into becoming an "overnight success" because the man swam with sharks and got his family through relatively unscathed (apart from the scars he placed on their psyche himself) and I've come to realize that all the hate he gets obscures a lot of the good he did.

    I'd like to see those MJ comments on his father if you have links please.

    Also does anyone have any insight into Joes life? I'd be willing to bet that his father was even worse a parent than he was.
    Bit in bold - Frenzy is referencing Michael's Oxford Union Speech from 2001. Here's the specific part:

    He had great difficulty showing affection. He never really told me he loved me. And he never really complimented me either. If I did a great show, he would tell me it was a good show. And if I did an OK show, he told me it was a lousy show.

    He seemed intent, above all else, on making us a commercial success. And at that he was more than adept. My father was a managerial genius and my brothers and I owe our professional success, in no small measure, to the forceful way that he pushed us. He trained me as a showman and under his guidance I couldn’t miss a step.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    A couple of quick thoughts.

    Michael Jackson didn't have repeated surgery because of any kind of memory of Joseph. Rather, the repeated surgeries was due to a bit of a complicated situation involving his discoid lupus. This is independently verified, by the way.

    And Joseph was important in getting the J5 from Gary, Indiana to Hitsville, Detroit and, therefore, Motown. Once at Motown, Berry Gordy took over and Joseph was essentially relegated to being a backseat passenger.

    Without Gordy, the J5 would never have entered the history books.

    Joseph was a man of limited means who came to believe in his sons enough to buy expensive music instruments the Jacksons really couldn't afford. This did cause a number of arguments between Joseph and Katherine.

    The early days are of critical importance to establishing any new group and Joseph knew it. But he also knew Motown could take his boys where he could not. Then, Epic later on with the help of then 16 year old Michael Jackson in the meeting with Ron Alexenburg of Epic.

    To the next level. Yet he really did not handle his own relegation well and never really recovered from it. As a result, he made a poor manager nobody really wanted to deal with from then on.

    His lasting influence on the J5 and Michael Jackson was the constant rehearsals. He never really praised the boys for a show much which fired up Michael's desire to do even better in order to earn his father's love and/or respect.
    Thanks for that PG, taking it from the top:

    Could you expound of the surgery/lupus thing please? As far as I know/guess there were multiple motivating factors behind his surgeries and one was to look less like Joe and the other was to get that euphoric high/rush associated with the knockout gas because I believe he was using them to get a buzz long before he went onto Propofol and admitted (at least to himself) that he was a junkie who liked downers.

    I agree and disagree with your Motown point, after their initial success Berry was too busy trying to get into the movie business and the day to day running of the label was left to someone whose name escape me at the moment and he didn't really care too much for the J5 and it was this writing that Joe saw on the wall and got them away from because without that one move the rest never would've happened as they would've ended up 4 Tops status somewhere for real. What Joe bought to Motown was a 5 layered cake that Berry put a cherry on and called his own creation much like how so many of MJs demos for songs (see Thriller sessions) were virtually complete before another producer applied a layer of polish to them and took the lions share of the credit.

    The musical instruments point is also very valid because at that point the family was more than struggling to make ends meet and that was just one of many events where Joes faith in his sons talent and future took precedent over current shortcomings and that speaks volumes because whichever way you look at it it must've been a huge confidence boost for the kids, whatever Joes actual motivation, to know that there was someone in their corner who believed in them that much.

    I have no doubt that he wasn't the best manager in the world and often cost them money (like leaving Motown owing 500K for songs they didn't release, leaving the name behind and all the other crap) but at so many critical junctures his iron fist whupped the boys onto just the right path and I personally had been blind to so much of what he did actually bring to the table and how instrumental he was in creating the legend that became Michael Jackson.

    He's far from the monster he was portrayed as in my opinion and I'm even starting to revise my opinion that he was the one that damaged MJ the most but thats another topic. I do believe that MJ and the others scapegoated him a lot whilst evangelizing their mother (who was as bad as Joe just smoother with her method of manipulation) but in general that entire family has a really messed up dynamic that the rest of the kids seemed to adapt to well enough but MJ always had that rebellious streak. Just made me think of Marvin Gayes relationship with his father and how all that played out.

    I do however believe that MJ was actually much better off with someone like this in his corner than without, if only Joe had mellowed out a bit or allowed the kids to stretch their wings a bit more it might've all played out differently for MJ because love him or hate him he was one of the few that didn't beat about the bush with him but that said you can also see why MJ gravitated towards yes men and escaped into his private fantasy world that was the best that money can buy in order to forget the shadow that Joe apparently cast over his psyche even though MJ from his teen years upto his 20s was a happy, gregarious and open individual and the craziness only came in later which once again points to something not Joe related as the main cause of his later pain.

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    As far as the plastic surgery stuff goes, I've heard different people say MJ had work done to look like Diana Ross/to look like Elizabeth Taylor/not to look like Joe.

    None of it seems that credible. Michael wanted a smaller nose, but that's hardly uncommon or unheard of, nor did it mean he wanted to erase his father (and I would argue he didn't even look the most like him out of the brothers) or look like Ms. Ross or Elizabeth Taylor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    The motive is irrelevant really as it was what he achieved that counts.
    The motive is not irrelevant in my opinion because what Joe did not achieve with The Falcons pushed him even more for big success with his boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    I'd like to see those MJ comments on his father if you have links please.
    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    Bit in bold - Frenzy is referencing Michael's Oxford Union Speech from 2001. Here's the specific part:
    There is also MJ’s mention in his Moonwalk book where he praises his father’s contribution:

    “…He (Joe) was a great trainer, and he spent a lot of money and time working with us. Talent is something that God gives to a performer, but our father taught us how to cultivate it …” (MJ, Moonwalk)

    The interesting thing here is that Joe was not aware of that particular quote until the journalist from TV One read it to him when he was interviewing Joe some time after MJ’s death.

    Or, when MJ emphatically described his father as a genius (for his managerial skills back then) during the Bashir’s documentary (Take Two).

    Or, during in one South African HIStory concert in 1997 when his parents were in the audience, MJ while being on stage briefly praised Joe (but also Katherine) for their important role in his career.

    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    A couple of quick thoughts.

    And Joseph was important in getting the J5 from Gary, Indiana to Hitsville, Detroit and, therefore, Motown. Once at Motown, Berry Gordy took over and Joseph was essentially relegated to being a backseat passenger.

    Without Gordy, the J5 would never have entered the history books.
    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    Thanks for that PG, taking it from the top:

    I agree and disagree with your Motown point, after their initial success Berry was too busy trying to get into the movie business and the day to day running of the label was left to someone whose name escape me at the moment and he didn't really care too much for the J5 and it was this writing that Joe saw on the wall and got them away from because without that one move the rest never would've happened as they would've ended up 4 Tops status somewhere for real. What Joe bought to Motown was a 5 layered cake that Berry put a cherry on and called his own creation much like how so many of MJs demos for songs (see Thriller sessions) were virtually complete before another producer applied a layer of polish to them and took the lions share of the credit.
    It should be noted also that Berry Gordy did not initially believe in the potential of the J5.

    In 1965, when Joe sent Gordy a J5 tape for evaluation, Gordy sent that tape back to Joe after three months with no offer at all.

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    ^^^It usually does take a high profile person to get label bosses who are very busy.

    For the J5, Gladys Knight and Bobby Taylor were hugely instrumental in getting Gordy to sign them. So, they were then invited to Detroit for the now famous audition.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    ^^^It usually does take a high profile person to get label bosses who are very busy.

    For the J5, Gladys Knight and Bobby Taylor were hugely instrumental in getting Gordy to sign them. So, they were then invited to Detroit for the now famous audition.
    Which it seemed like was admitted by the J5's first album being subtitled "Diana Ross Presents...". They just swapped people because obviously Diana had more commercial pull.

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