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Thread: Bad would have been received quite differently if....

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Danileevan View Post
    APOM,

    I will not hold anyone other than MJ (and early on his family) for his own deeply seated psychological problems that were very likely there even as a very young child, heck as a newborn. That is what I stated above..MJ was messed up beyond repair(or at least beyond repair with no help or guidance) a long time before his first freaking nose job..Can we not agree to that at least?

    The way you tell it the story goes ...Healthy boy enters public eye..White big wigs hint that he needs a look overhaul then said boy takes it to such an extreme as others cheer him on and then he ends up looking nothing like a human being by the end of his life due to some sort of false image goals or whatever you are calling it now.. Then said boy cannot sell any more albums and it was all due to what? Surgery? Racism? SMH..


    You give no lip service at all even to the very slight possibility that MJ could have very well been born off kilter more so than his siblings or just reg folks etc...And that his stardom and all the money in the world helped to lead a already damaged psyche into a path of self destruction..

    .I think you may be sort of hinting that it was someone else behind the curtain pushing MJ and other black artists into some "false image realization" I am trying to understand what you are saying here, but believe me and I think I can speak for a few here, we have started to really lose you on this thread...You are quoting films and other fictional things like the "Jackson family" movie as if that all really was said or happened..I mean it is as real as toomuch and his Fonze vid

    And now you are claiming Whitney was given advice on changing up her look too?

    I will give you this,I can see a record label or image consultant telling anyone new to the industry that they would look better with a little work. That is all well and good in my eyes and probably most other folks as well. It is showbiz after all and we want the "beautiful" people not the average to entertain us..We always have..That is nothing new.

    Even you Apom have got no issue with MJ from OTW or even Thriller yet he had more than a few nips and tucks then, so you are not flat out against facial work if it makes someone look "better" in your eyes but once it does not look good to you then it is all wrong and suspect....Which in some comments comes off as a little inconsistent.

    I dunno. Maybe it is just me and my thick white skull but I am at a loss at what point you were trying to make other than Bad did not outsell Thriller because MJ looked too different..But you have turned it up to 11 in a few ways here...With no real basis for some of the "facts" you are stating.

    Dani
    The system gets a pass, they create the problem, and then when everything goes haywire, that's when those who caused the conflict leave individuals to fend for themselves, leaving that person ill equipped to deal w/the ramifications of what has happened....

    When everything was going good, before everything reached the crucible level, there wasn't this talk about MIchael being off the rocker or having some inate generic problem at birth.......

    so whenever someone develops a problem in life, that problem should be attributed to their birth?

    that takes the onus off the real core issue.....

    when things were going good, the family wasn't being targeted as being dyfunctional, not until MJ was drawn away from the family dynamic did the attacks start on them.......that takes the onus off of the real core problem

    and I've shared and stated that I would have bought Michael's music if he never had one single plastic surgery and that goes for any of the artists music I've bought in my lifetime......he or nobody has to change himself or herself for me to support their album

    when everything went wrong, then everyone associated with MIchael when things were good gets thrown under the bus......

    Dani, like you are a friend to me but this has always been a serious situation because I knew and anyone could see where this story was headed when it became obvious.....and considering how his life ended up at the very end, this should make everyone reconsider everything because there is no way that was supposed to happen.

    in the end, towards the end, the man could not perform w/out adjusting his appearance on the fly....real human travail on a world stage is what we witnessed

    I would suggest for anyone to watch that 2011 documentary Life of an Icon and a figure at Motown records said "Michael was the darling of white society, he had to change" and when he said white society, he's not talking about common day, working class white people, he's referring to those who held the keys to opportunity and success in the entertainment industry.....those were his own words, and I would think he would have just as much if not even more insight of the mechanizations of the entertainment industry during that time as anyone for him to reach a conclusion like that.....

    MIchael Jackson was asked to change, and by him being in position to be the first black artist to generate global appeal, he began the process of doing that, marginally in the beginning and then everything accelerated as he reached the pinnacle.

    Yes, choice played a factor in it, but the environment and the climate in which his early career was shaped by led him to gravitate towards changing his appearance.........

    if he was such an outcast, or off his rocker, then what made people by his music

    and if you don't believe that what I said about Whitney, the research is out there, and there was a special that aired in 2015 that aired on Lifetime that makes reference to how she was going to be marketed and promoted to the public and if one compares her appearance in 1982-1983 starting out to what people recognized her as when she became a superstar, she looked different, and how she was marketed led to that backlash that happened five-six years later

    it's one thing for advisors to recommended changing a hair style or attire, style per se....but when it becomes about changing physical features to where when you change it, you can't turn back, that's a whole other ball game....


    we can go down the line with name after name, a neverending list of people affected by this stuff.


    Kenny Rogers is a prime example, he was a cool looking guy, had a great career going for himself, great following of fans from many cultures, he was pushed to change himself, and it destroyed his life and career where he almost died having surgery that he absolutely didn't need, and he can't really perform anymore......

    nobody can live up to those superficial standards, nothing good comes of it in the end....

    I'm a chill out for awhile because I know I'm not misleading anyone
    Last edited by Just Another Part of Me; 5 Days Ago at 01:38 AM.

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  3. #72
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    I've never seen that Life Of An Icon documentary so will give that a watch, thanks.

    FWIW I do agree that the industry pushes its own agenda on successful artists and most acquiesce because the labels are the pimps and those most idolize are seen as but $2 hoes by those who put them on the stroll to bring in that cash so they shut up and do what they are told. I spoke on it at length in a post a while back where people were talking about Beyonce and I said she was being turned into a white woman before our eyes to broaden her appeal and how it was symptomatic of the fact that nothing had really changed in the game.

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  5. #73
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    What happened with Beyonce is just typical of many celebrities that are claimed to have "it" factors. Stars that have "it" factors are basically determined to reach for higher plateaus and once they do, do their best to control the narrative. She was no different than that of MJ or Whitney, who set higher plateaus that eventually they found too overwhelming to match once they continued. Beyonce seems to be doing alright but it will come to a point that instead of "changing" herself to be more mainstream resulting in a loss of popularity, it would just be that people would have moved on in general, not because an artist "changes" themselves. Kanye West hasn't had surgery or has made himself "look white" (which is ridiculous to say imho) and look what's happened to him. And that was due to his own mental issues. He surely had more issues than Michael ever did, I tell ya that. But that's another topic and I see this topic going away from the original point, which is "what would've been for the Bad album's success".
    Last edited by TroubleMan84; 4 Days Ago at 12:15 PM.
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  7. #74
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    Yes folks I know it is off the thread topic but come on, we have gone SO FAR beyond why did Bad not sell like Thriller here sooo...

    In response to your last post APOM.

    As I see it, in the 70s into the 80s mental health was not talked about as openly as it is in today's day and age..So I would say it was less a "thing" for the press and public to discuss MJ in that manner just because of the culture at large and shame around it..You had entire families lying to extended family if a relative needed psyche meds or God forbid a short stay in a lock-down unit.

    I beg to differ on the factors surrounding mental health, addictions, obsessions etc.

    People ARE very much indeed "born with it" but that is not to blame them for it in the slighest...


    We now know that it is a subtle play between genetics and environment when it comes to mental well being vs madness...I would be so bold to say that genetics are the bigger player in the grand scheme of things..Environment can certainly push even the most balanced minds over into the abyss but I think it is always going to be much easier for someone with a genetic predisposition to be highly effected by environmental factors.

    My belief is MJ had some sort of predisposition and THEN to have lead a life like he did was going to create a whole host of mental and emotional afflictions which started playing out very early (someone on this board(jay???) posted the Peter Pan narrative going on around MJ as far back as the 70s)

    The main thrust of his mental challenges stayed hidden under that " adorable eccentric" idea until we as a society learned to be more open and honest about mental disease and addictions. So as you said APOM you do not think that MJ was ever thought of as "off his rocker" or "mentally ill" until later..And while those terms perhaps were not used the press DEF were saying he was odd and bizarre LONG before his first nose job. Most adult men are not called manchild Peter Pans...(code words for something is wrong with this dude)

    So I STILL cannot figure out who you are exactly blaming for MJs issues if what I posted just above is in fact true...It was not society or culture and it did not all of a sudden appear in MJ as you claim..It was just more hidden if you will.

    Now I agree as well with what Toomuch and with what Trouble had to say (even though they have differing views slightly).Yes these singers, actors what have you are in the end products to be sold..Sometimes at any cost whatsoever. Most know pretty early on that they are to be sold like shiny beautiful baubles to the public and yes it is very true someone like MJ had no real choice in the matter..

    MJs soul was on the trading market being bought and sold to the highest bidders before he was even 13. I have always had a sense that yes MJs mental predispositions not withstanding..Being sold to the public at that age and STAYING on the auction block for as long as he did he simply never had a fighting chance to "know thyself" and probably always had a very shaky if even existent sense of self hood.

    I believe it was toomuch who once said something akin to MJs sense of "self hood" was only as "deep" as what was reflected back at him by rabid and crazed fans and the public at large..And this is why he could not live without that worship, why he was shall we say positively "addicted" to it in many ways to his very own detriment...I have a feeling he hated being sober and alone with his own thoughts for much longer than 5 mins at time probably for the last 20 years of his life, maybe even long before that.

    Even that Rabbi said the same thing...MJ fell for his own hype hook line and sinker and could not stop doing so even when he said he wanted to change his outlook and lifestyle. He simply could not stop needing that approval from the masses. He was entrenched in "the cult of self"

    That is all speculation on my part to be sure but I could bet I am not too far off.


    Trouble,

    Kanye WORSE than MJ??? When I look at MJs life as it fell apart from say 1993 on wards until his death.From the weird choices he made (yes up to and including still chilling with kids in bed after he settles out of court..That HINTS to something VERY odd in his thought patterns and a lack of living in any reality)..

    MJ beats out Wests mental break by leaps and bounds.. MJ was much more of the old school for a long while where nobody was going to talk but in whispers about his behavior..West is part of a much more modern culture that easily will discuss his delusions of grandeur much more openly..

    I had thought with West (and granted I do not follow the guy) that he had just been awake for many days be it from adrenaline of touring or a meth binge, that he got to a point of having visions paranoid thoughts and hearing things due to lack of sleep and food..Like a manic break in the short term..Which to be honest happens to a TON of new students or people out on their own for the first time.. So even though it sounds strange, I would not say(seeing more than one of my family members exp it) one psychotic break that was treated quickly could compare with a lifetime 40 years or more of the slight odd behavior of MJ that went from a gentle yet bizarre simmer to a ranging boil of madness later in his life . ..That is JMO though of course

    Dani
    Last edited by Danileevan; 3 Days Ago at 04:18 PM.
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  8. #75
    Yes, Kanye is worse than MJ in a lot of ways. A "simmer to a boil" is kinda different than a constant boiling overflow over the course of 8 years. I'm not into debating or speculating on people's mental health so I'll move on.


    I have a friend who was around Michael over the years. A lot of what has been written HAS been exaggerated about his behavior on some instances, but people always saw him as odd but it was understandable given his life. I'm not talking about the hanging out with kids or even the surgeries. He had a different way of thinking and it showed. The success of Thriller put him in another bubble. Before the fame that followed with Thriller came, Michael would sometimes skate around his neighborhood or sneak around flea markets in LA. Living in a bubble but not like the one that came in '83.




    ANYWAY....back to Bad. The album may have not topped Thriller in sales but look at the stats of that era:

    #1 on the Billboard 200 for six weeks
    #1 on the Billboard R&B chart
    #1 in the UK for five weeks

    #1 in 25 different countries.
    6 US top 10 singles, 5 going to #1
    7 UK top 10 singles
    2 American Music Awards
    1 Grammy Award
    2 BRE Awards including the Triple Crown as King of Pop, Rock and Soul
    3 BRIT Awards
    a Cable Ace Award
    a Critics Choice Award
    2 MTV VMA Awards

    Following up the biggest selling album, he did pretty well for himself...

    -The Bad tour being a huge success, including 7 sold out shows at Wembley.
    -Moonwalker outselling ET in home video's sales that year and becoming the best selling music home video of all time.
    -Having Moonwalker #1 for 20 weeks then having it replaced with The Legend Continues.

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  10. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by jaywonder View Post
    Yes, Kanye is worse than MJ in a lot of ways. A "simmer to a boil" is kinda different than a constant boiling overflow over the course of 8 years. I'm not into debating or speculating on people's mental health so I'll move on.


    I have a friend who was around Michael over the years. A lot of what has been written HAS been exaggerated about his behavior on some instances, but people always saw him as odd but it was understandable given his life. I'm not talking about the hanging out with kids or even the surgeries. He had a different way of thinking and it showed. The success of Thriller put him in another bubble. Before the fame that followed with Thriller came, Michael would sometimes skate around his neighborhood or sneak around flea markets in LA. Living in a bubble but not like the one that came in '83.




    ANYWAY....back to Bad. The album may have not topped Thriller in sales but look at the stats of that era:

    #1 on the Billboard 200 for six weeks
    #1 on the Billboard R&B chart
    #1 in the UK for five weeks

    #1 in 25 different countries.
    6 US top 10 singles, 5 going to #1
    7 UK top 10 singles
    2 American Music Awards
    1 Grammy Award
    2 BRE Awards including the Triple Crown as King of Pop, Rock and Soul
    3 BRIT Awards
    a Cable Ace Award
    a Critics Choice Award
    2 MTV VMA Awards

    Following up the biggest selling album, he did pretty well for himself...

    -The Bad tour being a huge success, including 7 sold out shows at Wembley.
    -Moonwalker outselling ET in home video's sales that year and becoming the best selling music home video of all time.
    -Having Moonwalker #1 for 20 weeks then having it replaced with The Legend Continues.


    all of that occurred due to the stature he built over the course of 15 years and with just accomplishing what wound up to be the greatest selling album in recorded music history......

    I guarantee despite of all of these landmarks, he was the most disappointed man in music and was no telling what he was saying behind closed doors, I'm sure he was teethering left and right and right on schedule, this is when people started getting replaced ala Frank Dileo and Quincy Jones, and no longer conducting concert shows in North America.....



    he was teed off during those 88 grammys and this clip shows it, the sales domestically had reached a standstill by then, even though the album had generated its 3 to 4 #1 single by then

  11. #77
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    APOM,

    In that very short clip MJ looks hella pissed off to me..
    Just to speculate what was his beef with the category? Was it because it was not album of the year or the best Pop album/single?

    Or something worse....MJ feeling like he was stuck in the "lowly" category of R n B again like he was with otw?

    Him shaking his head like that just when Jodie said best RnB male seems he already knew he lost or MAYBE as I said he felt he was beyond the RnB stage in the game. Not just beyond it maybe even miles ABOVE it.

    Did MJ feel as if he was owed any Grammy that he was up for?...Sometimes I wonder if Thriller convinced him that he would always dominate every single award show for life...Hard to say just a guess. But once Thriller had did what it had..Even though Bad rocked it simply was not doing what MJ wanted it or was trying to WILL to do.

    MJ seemed to start resting on his laurels...I know I will be thought of as a hater here but at times I feel when Bad tour was about over (before the contract with sony was signed) MJ should have exited stage left..Produced, wrote songs for others or simply spent his money wisely and went into retirement...

    When he realized Bad was a "down swing" for him despite putting so much effort to promote the Album (even though his hopes were Really misplaced in trying to outdo Thriller) Fact is he had hit is amazing stride and if it was me after I came to the harsh reality that I could not WILL my album to win Grammys or sell 60 million copies. At least my thinking would lean to wanting to end on top...MJ I am not really sure what his thought process with all that was...

    If it was an ego getting crushed,c creeping depression regarding the supposed in his mind "horrid" sales of bad (which were still epic numbers). I cannot even really begin to speculate on all that.

    What actually drove him when he could see the writing on the wall? Could just have been his work ethic and the want to stay on top.? ..I wish he could have soaked up every single millisecond of those halcyon days became satisfied and made music for the joy and love of it. Not because he had to beat his own records.

    Dani
    Last edited by Danileevan; 6 Hours Ago at 09:11 PM.
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  12. #78
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    Well we know he had a big ego. Michael had performed in one of the most memorable performances of his career at the '88 Grammys... I can see him being ticked off he didn't get any award for Bad. I don't think it was ever nominated for Album of the Year.
    I was a king under your control...

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  14. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Danileevan View Post
    APOM,

    In that very short clip MJ looks hella pissed off to me..
    Just to speculate what was his beef with the category? Was it because it was not album of the year or the best Pop album/single?

    Or something worse....MJ feeling like he was stuck in the "lowly" category of R n B again like he was with otw?

    Him shaking his head like that just when Jodie said best RnB male seems he already knew he lost or MAYBE as I said he felt he was beyond the RnB stage in the game. Not just beyond it maybe even miles ABOVE it.

    Did MJ feel as if he was owed any Grammy that he was up for?...Sometimes I wonder if Thriller convinced him that he would always dominate every single award show for life...Hard to say just a guess. But once Thriller had did what it had..Even though Bad rocked...

    MJ seemed to start resting on his laurels...I know I will be thought of as a hater here but at times I feel when Bad tour was about over (before the contract with sony was signed) MJ should have exited stage left..Produced, wrote songs for others or simply spent his money wisely and went into retirement...

    When he realized Bad was a "down swing" for him despite putting so much effort to promote the Album (even though his hopes were Really misplaced in trying to outdo Thriller) Fact is he had hit is amazing stride and if it was me after I came to the harsh reality that I could not WILL my album to win Grammys or sell 60 million copies. At least my thinking would lean to wanting to end on top...MJ I am not really sure what his thought process with all that was...

    If it was an ego getting crushed,c creeping depression regarding the "horrid"sales of bad which were still fantastic. I cannot even really begin to speculate on all that.

    What actually drove him when he could see the writing on the wall? Could just have been his work ethic and the want to stay on top.? ..I wish he could have soaked up ever single millisecond of those halcyon days became satisfied and made music for the joy and love of it. Not because he had to beat his own records.

    Dani
    I'm sure all those scenarios played a role in his reaction

    this was definitely a disappointment to him and by the beginning of the 90s, he would prepare to transition himself to become an international artist exclusively, thinking garnering a new round of support overseas would compensate for the void left in his homeland...

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