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Thread: $H*! Fans Say

  1. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vega View Post
    Some totally reasonable folks on MyMJForum seem to be arguing that Michael Jackson was never a drug addict.

    Oh and they compared him shooting analgesic opioids to a middle aged dude taking Viagra.
    Like this from Respect77:

    "He died of Propofol of which there is no proof that it is addictive. I don't know what ingredients it has that is supposedly used in heorion, but it is not heroin and it is nothing like heroin. There is not even evidence Propofol is addictive."
    Not strictly true - the evidence propofol is addictive has been growing since 1992, if I recall correctly. It's quite a difficult one to study and uncover since you usually know about it when someone has been found dead.

    Usually healthcare professionals, especially anaesthesiologists are the ones abusing it. So, odds are that Michael was introduced to it by a professional who probably had also abused it him or herself. One suspect would be the anaesthesiologist who accompanied Michael on the German leg of the HIStory tour. But this is clearly very unproven. It's an unsubstantiated allegation regarding this particular doctor who was also highly unprofessional.

    After all, propofol does NOT promote REM activity and, therefore, zero restful sleep.

    Here's some studies:

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ependence.aspx

    http://www.jneuropsychiatry.org/peer...fol-abuse.html

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5836055/

    Of course, Respect77 relies on the fact that not every healthcare professional agrees that propofol is addictive.

    Well, it's not even that, but much more accurate to say that further evidence is required which is only a matter of time.

    Though there has been growing conviction directing towards the potential of propofol for abuse, the addictive characteristic of propofol is still a matter of debate in the research arena. The scattered and sporadic nature of studies demand more evidence at clinical as well as experimental levels. The modes of addiction to propofol need to be explored further to determine the population at risk of its use. While these measures can help in determining the gravity of the problem and methods to exert control over its harmful consequences, detailed work at the cellular, molecular, and genetic levels as suggested in this review may prove essential to develop strategies to curtail the problem.
    The more research develops, the harder it will be to deny the addictiveness of propofol.

    But some healthcare professionals may have a bias AGAINST propofol being addictive:

    "Due to propofol’s advantages over other sedatives, it has become an indispensable tool in modern anesthesiology practices. Impeding access to such a ubiquitous medication may unnecessarily add administrative load and cost to implement controls and delay access during critical emergencies. "
    Some professionals objected to propofol being classified as a controlled substance from November 2009.

    And this is PRECISELY why further research is required in order to settle the matter once and for all.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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    Vega (3 Weeks Ago)

  3. #672
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    I further noted that on the forum Vega talked about above they get stuck on dependency v addiction. Sure, on one level, they're correct in saying that there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

    But fail because they make an unnecessary distinction between legal and illegal drugs. At the end of the day, legal or illegal, a chemical reaction is occurring within the human body.

    "Difference between dependence and addiction

    Becoming dependent on alcohol or drugs means you rely on a substance to feel good or to cope with everyday life. Your body adapts to it, needing more and more of it to get the same effect (called tolerance). Your body develops specific physical or mental symptoms if you stop using the substance abruptly (called withdrawal). This can happen with many types of drugs when they are used for a long time – even prescription medication.

    Just because you are physically dependent on alcohol or a drug, it doesn’t necessarily mean you are addicted, but often the two go together.

    People who are addicted to alcohol or other drugs continue to use it despite the harmful consequences. They find it difficult to stop using, which can often significantly impact and disrupt their lives – failure to meet work, social or family obligations, as well as health problems."
    Consider Michael's life during the preparations for This Is It from March to June 2009. It was disrupted by his substance abuse and the press conference in March announcing the concerts is a very good example of that.

    We now know this happened and that Randy Phillips slapped Michael on the arse before the public appearance on his hotel room.

    Michael certainly felt he needed propofol to sleep according to various accounts and not just Conrad Murray's account. You could call this physical dependency if you want, but it sounds more like a psychological one to me. Propofol does not allow for restful sleep.

    But dependency AND addiction very often go hand in hand. That is, dependency can give way to, transform, morph or whatever into......addiction.

    And all the growing body of evidence tells us that propofol IS an addictive substance.

    So, Snow White, Kremlin and various cannot even rely on a distinction between dependency and addiction. To present it as an either/or scenario is a logical fallacy known as False Dilemma aka Black Or White thinking, all or nothing and either/or.

    A third scenario exists - dependency and addiction often go together.

    And Michael Jackson admitted to being an addict during his treatment for analgesic abuse with Beechy. The fact he was still trying to avoid addiction in 2002 with an implant further underscores the fact Michael had a history of being an addict.

    After all, his dependency during the Dangerous tour absolutely became an addiction. Very much like what happened with propofol in 2009.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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  5. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    I further noted that on the forum Vega talked about above they get stuck on dependency v addiction. Sure, on one level, they're correct in saying that there is a difference between dependency and addiction.

    But fail because they make an unnecessary distinction between legal and illegal drugs. At the end of the day, legal or illegal, a chemical reaction is occurring within the human body.



    Consider Michael's life during the preparations for This Is It from March to June 2009. It was disrupted by his substance abuse and the press conference in March announcing the concerts is a very good example of that.

    We now know this happened and that Randy Phillips slapped Michael on the arse before the public appearance on his hotel room.

    Michael certainly felt he needed propofol to sleep according to various accounts and not just Conrad Murray's account. You could call this physical dependency if you want, but it sounds more like a psychological one to me. Propofol does not allow for restful sleep.

    But dependency AND addiction very often go hand in hand. That is, dependency can give way to, transform, morph or whatever into......addiction.

    And all the growing body of evidence tells us that propofol IS an addictive substance.

    So, Snow White, Kremlin and various cannot even rely on a distinction between dependency and addiction. To present it as an either/or scenario is a logical fallacy known as False Dilemma aka Black Or White thinking, all or nothing and either/or.

    A third scenario exists - dependency and addiction often go together.

    And Michael Jackson admitted to being an addict during his treatment for analgesic abuse with Beechy. The fact he was still trying to avoid addiction in 2002 with an implant further underscores the fact Michael had a history of being an addict.

    After all, his dependency during the Dangerous tour absolutely became an addiction. Very much like what happened with propofol in 2009.
    Thanks for digging deep on those posts, it's appreciated. I'm not familiar with him getting an implant to control addiction - I assume it was fairly untested strategy, right?

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    PG13 (3 Weeks Ago)

  7. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vega View Post
    Thanks for digging deep on those posts, it's appreciated. I'm not familiar with him getting an implant to control addiction - I assume it was fairly untested strategy, right?
    Knopper's book has some information on the Naltrexone implant that's designed to reduce the effects of narcotics.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...202002&f=false

    Dr Farschian was the one who put it in. He's a specialist in regenerative orthopaedic medicine. In other words, he's NOT a specialist in drug addiction in the same way Conrad Murray is not a specialist in drug addiction OR insomnia.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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    Vega (3 Weeks Ago)

  9. #675
    I think we shouldn't give the fans who feel that way more flack tbh

    I think it's because people aren't really aware of the effects AND the stigma behind drug dependency and addiction is still a major issue

    Prince fans are still dealing with this topic as well

    Plus....there's other topics we as MJ fans gotta clear up...as seen in this very section of this forum LOL

  10. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaywonder View Post
    I think we shouldn't give the fans who feel that way more flack tbh

    I think it's because people aren't really aware of the effects AND the stigma behind drug dependency and addiction is still a major issue

    Prince fans are still dealing with this topic as well

    Plus....there's other topics we as MJ fans gotta clear up...as seen in this very section of this forum LOL
    All of this is true.
    I was a king under your control...

  11. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    Making Michael has some information on the Naltrexone implant that's designed to reduce the effects of narcotics.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...202002&f=false

    Dr Farschian was the one who put it in. He's a specialist in regenerative orthopaedic medicine. In other words, he's NOT a specialist in drug addiction in the same way Conrad Murray is not a specialist in drug addiction OR insomnia.
    Your link is to "MJ: The Genius of Michael Jackson" - is the book any good? I enjoyed Making Michael on your recommendation and have just picked up the Magic & Madness for a good laugh because it was cheap.

  12. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomuch View Post
    Your link is to "MJ: The Genius of Michael Jackson" - is the book any good? I enjoyed Making Michael on your recommendation and have just picked up the Magic & Madness for a good laugh because it was cheap.
    Oops, so it is! I've no idea if it's any good, but it has the last interviews with Louis Johnson and Rod Temperton in it, I think.

    It was likely AlwaysThere who recommended Making Michael to you as I don't really recommend books that tell me what I already know.
    "Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you can't even concieve of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even that. How many times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless." - Brandon Lee

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    toomuch (1 Week Ago)

  14. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by PG13 View Post
    Oops, so it is! I've no idea if it's any good, but it has the last interviews with Louis Johnson and Rod Temperton in it, I think.

    It was likely AlwaysThere who recommended Making Michael to you as I don't really recommend books that tell me what I already know.
    So it was, you'd recommended Magic & Madness though with the caveat of it only being accurate upto 1991 in my other thread.

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